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Weapon Tier List Discussion

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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Gravedigger » 02 Aug 2015, 01:02

SupremeTentacle wrote:@ Grave

Wand has something to compensate for what you described to be a lack of ability to handle mobs without eating through SP. Seeing as how Lv. 105 magatama are only of the fifth rank, this implies that wands are able to use rank 5 skills, which consume little to no sp for them. These rank five skills should also be sufficiently powerful enough to one shot monsters. For example, a wand could easily have a wand with triple rank 5 fireball. This skill not only has extremely low cooldown, but is also targetted, and does decent single target damage. Wand users are almost able to infinitely cast this spell with only one weapon if they do things correctly. This allows them to easily eat through mobs of a lower density without consuming vast amounts of sp. God sealing circle also decimates mobs of melee-based monsters.

TS's best Ougi is Fuujin's circle dance, which, in combination with several other factors, such as their damage consistency and scaling, puts it a good tier above sword. Do note that TS has access to more wind skills than almost every other weapon, implying that wind builds are extremely viable and efficient. I would say that a wind build is far superior to a lightning build for TS.

Heal is detrimental. I've seen a staff do 400k per tick with Nether Trap (in our server, on the dog boss in oushuu). I think it's quite usable as an offensive weapon, just not optimal because of limited elemental selection and low base damage.


Using three rank 5 moves will cover for single targets, but wands can easily take those out anyway. Adding more damage to that is superfluous in that aspect. And using 3 moves in one wand means you'll have to sacrifice a slot unless you want to switch weapons in accordance to a mob, which can be fatal in panic situations. Using 3 moves back to back will easily take up more SP than a single move. It's more efficient however. The problem with wands is with frost glaive being their largest AoE move, one would need to walk within aggro range to cast it, and there's a gap between the caster and the glaive. That gives the chance for enemies to walk up to you while you enter your animation.It also consumes a massive amount of SP. With Axes, you can chip away at an incoming mob with something like BFB, and double Asura's to clean what's left. Theoretically of course. With wands, one would need to frost glaive into frost glaive to chip away at mobs IF it hits, and then Sealing circle whatever is left. The bad thing is, if it doesn't clean up, it puts enemies right in front of you which is exactly what wands don't want. Fujin circle doesn't have as large of an AoE as frost glaive, so if the enemies are dispersed, it's not the best tool. I agree the crimson ray is quite weak though. The most effective method that I see for wands would be to zombie flick the enemies using bright homing as a machine gun. It sounds ridiculous, but effective in theory.

Twin swords do have access to many wind moves, and fujin circle dance it quite under rated. However, I would think it to be the superior Ougi IF it acted more like Miyamoto's ougi, and went through enemies. Sure fujin is insanely strong, and hits twice per lunge, but it doesn't go through an enemy. This makes it good for single targets, but if the target is a boss monster, the boss monster will hit you by the time you enter your third hit, which will more than probably kill you. Roll canceling would just make the move useless if you can't take advantage of all the hits. This also makes the chiami lose value, as you have less hits to get a crit from vs TB. Also, this move tends to get stuck on dead enemies when their bodies haven't disappeared completely which makes it hard to use, and extremely annoying.

Staffs are too important to every player. I didn't consider their damage, because if they could do damage, odds are they would just be outclassed by wands. Healing isn't very valuable, but the other skills like res, RS, and invig/medi are.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Gravedigger » 02 Aug 2015, 01:06

Ryxa wrote:@Grave

Just a few things I wanted to mention. In terms of sheer damage, swords have a +-13% range (Or maybe 8, correct me if I'm wrong) while TS have a +-5% range. While this does mean that swords CAN do more damage than TS, it doesn't mean they do so consistently. TS have a higher average damage than sword but with a lower min/max. What TS offers that sword does not is consistency. Sword offers slightly weaker damage in trade for EVEN FASTER spells (Both classes are already really fast).

Meanwhile, the damage boosts from stats actually favor TS more than swords. As swords take pow as primary and dex as secondary, while TS take dex as primary and pow as secondary/tertiary, TS will gain more statistically overall. While sword gains affinity from pow, it does not gain the bonus affinity every 10 pow levels and it does not gain affinity from dex. TS on the other had, gets the bonus affinity every 10 pow along with regular affinity scaling from dex. On this same topic, TS taking dex over pow also means on average, most TS players SHOULD have more dex than sword players. The main difference here is the fact that sword has more available affinity titles than TS users do.

I'm trying my best not to be biased as I use sword personally, but there's a few more major differences that have not been mentioned. Firstly, the majority of TS skills have higher SF values than swords. In fact, there are videos of TS users straight up tanking gargoyles due to chiami + their higher damage and multi-hits that allow them to cycle skill repeatedly. In the case of swords, the extra hp from definitely does help. I've survived quite a few hits here and there with under 1000 hp to spare and I'm fairly certain I'd have died were it not for that little bit of extra hp from pow. Regardless, that little extra hp isn't much help as a best case scenario involves not getting hit in the first place. One last thing to mention is that recently sword's TSB got buffed by approx. 8% sf (Which helps A LOT. Like A LOT. Like it totally made this skill VIABLE when it wasn't viable for use in Edo before the buff WITHOUT needing a ton of holy) while TS's TSB did NOT.

Finally, (and somewhat off-topic) STAB doesn't really apply in Onigiri as anyone can build any element. The reason why Axe/Sword/TS seem to have this STAB effect (Also this isn't Pokemon... not hating, I like Pokemon too) is because ornaments like fated contractor and avenger on monsters, which are the primary crit ornaments, have slice on them.

Also, just going to mention one more time that these are opinions and I'm doing my best to be unbiased but it can't be helped sometimes. I know for a fact I defnitely see more of sword's weaknesses and see more of other classes strengths than a person who doesn't play sword as their main and that as a person I tend to get stuck on small details.


I main Twins myself, so I guess I saw swords as just being better. But it seems twin swords are a bit better on paper. I suppose that changes my view on TS a bit.

I guess I didn't specify, but I didn't mean that TS users have less dex than swords. It's just that swords tend to have more dex than dex users have pow.

Pokemon! Although any player can spec into any element, I don't think it's very practical for something like a sword user to spec into fire element for the smash blast thing, or TS users to spec into ice for the ice dance. But the ornaments do indeed cater to those classes more.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby AtmaMoogle » 02 Aug 2015, 07:19

TS/Bow doesn't need anything more than a TOTAL of 100 pow as you don't gain anymore affinity, where swords will need at least 80-90 BASE dex to gain the most out of dex. That's a shit ton of extra base points you can add to wis as a Dex user. I dunno, using Dex as a main stat already give you a slight build advantage over others cause of freedom after you cap it.

For elements, Sword doesn't need to build fire seeing how CFBS is actually really shitty. They can just build slice with fated and avengers and do the super meta Triple lunge step build with 105 mags.

TS isn't really limited on elements either. They have godlike Wind skills, they also have the luxury from having a pretty good rank VII wind and fire, ice and rain, mountain and lightning. Which is pretty damn good when you realize those element pairings are the ones you can get with Gargoyle. So in theory TS really does have a lot of viable elements, and not just Ice... I just don't think ornamentation is a problem at all for them. Multi-Elements is one of the reasons why TS is hella strong vs Gargs.

I do wish they added impact or pierce element ornament choices and not just slice though. SPIN KICK BUILD WHERE YOU ATTTTTT.

On different note, Vit is pretty useless eh? I mean sure HP is nice and all... but bonus defense is literally worthless. So if you wanted more HP you could just build Pow and get Attack speed and some other stat I forget.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby SupremeTentacle » 02 Aug 2015, 09:22

Gravedigger wrote:Using three rank 5 moves will cover for single targets, but wands can easily take those out anyway. Adding more damage to that is superfluous in that aspect. And using 3 moves in one wand means you'll have to sacrifice a slot unless you want to switch weapons in accordance to a mob, which can be fatal in panic situations. Using 3 moves back to back will easily take up more SP than a single move. It's more efficient however. The problem with wands is with frost glaive being their largest AoE move, one would need to walk within aggro range to cast it, and there's a gap between the caster and the glaive. That gives the chance for enemies to walk up to you while you enter your animation.It also consumes a massive amount of SP. With Axes, you can chip away at an incoming mob with something like BFB, and double Asura's to clean what's left. Theoretically of course. With wands, one would need to frost glaive into frost glaive to chip away at mobs IF it hits, and then Sealing circle whatever is left. The bad thing is, if it doesn't clean up, it puts enemies right in front of you which is exactly what wands don't want. Fujin circle doesn't have as large of an AoE as frost glaive, so if the enemies are dispersed, it's not the best tool. I agree the crimson ray is quite weak though. The most effective method that I see for wands would be to zombie flick the enemies using bright homing as a machine gun. It sounds ridiculous, but effective in theory.

Twin swords do have access to many wind moves, and fujin circle dance it quite under rated. However, I would think it to be the superior Ougi IF it acted more like Miyamoto's ougi, and went through enemies. Sure fujin is insanely strong, and hits twice per lunge, but it doesn't go through an enemy. This makes it good for single targets, but if the target is a boss monster, the boss monster will hit you by the time you enter your third hit, which will more than probably kill you. Roll canceling would just make the move useless if you can't take advantage of all the hits. This also makes the chiami lose value, as you have less hits to get a crit from vs TB. Also, this move tends to get stuck on dead enemies when their bodies haven't disappeared completely which makes it hard to use, and extremely annoying.

Staffs are too important to every player. I didn't consider their damage, because if they could do damage, odds are they would just be outclassed by wands. Healing isn't very valuable, but the other skills like res, RS, and invig/medi are.


That's the thing though, you can just use ougi for the AOE. People have always said frost glaive is good and all, but in my opinion, it's honestly shitty noob bait. For a highly condensed mob, you can even just gatling through it with bright homing. like you said. It's actually quite a popular tactic in JP. Note that bright homing's real range is longer than the indicator, and is something ridiculous over 18m. Although it's quite difficult to master, if you can learn to sweep with bright homing, you can easily take like 6-7 monsters with one cast.

In panic situations, wands mash god sealing circle. This ougi is so powerful than it can obliterate any and all melee mobs. It simply does that much damage. And, like I said, fireball has such a low cool down that it can literally be infinitely used. You can actually take out mobs with it rather quickly as well, provided you have enough cool down reduction. One of the most important things to note is that one spell is one kill simply because of sheer brute force. Not wanting to be close to monsters is a misconception. Anything that walks into God Sealing Circle's range will die. We're talking a skill that can crit 200k (albeit on Satan, who is weak to holy) per tick without SF here.

The wand user's second ougi, generally fuujin raijin, can also assist with killing large mobs.

As for axe.... Generally speaking, I'd rather just run up to a big mob without spamming BFB ahead of time. Doing so gets me killed because the ranged mobs in the back start attacking by the time I'm done. Their aggro range normally is longer than blue fang blade's range so..... It's not very useful unless the mobs are more isolated, such as in the first room in the second floor of pipe 3, and the second room of the first floor in boukyaku.

One of the reasons that Fuujin's is incredibly good is because it takes 0 time to cancel from it into a JG. Ping throws this off on our server, sadly. It's *normally* supposed to let anyone with good reactions basically be a god while bossing. I agree that the glitch that gets you stuck on monsters is indeed annoying though. Note that, with bossing, this once again leads to the fact that aggro can be easily directed towards one person with a bit of practice.

Chiami has no value anyways.

The damage that staves do is actually surprisingly high compared to what one might suspect.

AtmaMoogle wrote:On different note, Vit is pretty useless eh? I mean sure HP is nice and all... but bonus defense is literally worthless. So if you wanted more HP you could just build Pow and get Attack speed and some other stat I forget.


I don't really understand what the devs had in mind when designing vit, actually. It's unfortunately, worth nothing, literally. In fact, building vit is even detrimental at times.... I'd love to be able to take points out of vit, and have 0, or even a negative number.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Miyako Tachibana » 05 Aug 2015, 00:03

Gravedigger wrote:Every player has one. Every. Single. One. With something like invig/medi, res, and RS staffs are just too essential. Even solo players use staffs for RS and medi. The occasional heal too. The class itself, however, has just been replaced. Chiami has pretty much taken away the need for healing, but with the declining use of it, maybe there's a chance?


Yeah I caught this really late, but I'm just going to say this. When all players on your pt are equipped with 105 mags, healing would just make their damage worse due to the magatamas only deal more skill force damage IF your health is low(basically in red/danger zone). This also applies to any player equipped with those mags. Any healing skills are basically rendered a tad useless there.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Gravedigger » 05 Aug 2015, 03:09

Miyako Tachibana wrote:
Gravedigger wrote:Every player has one. Every. Single. One. With something like invig/medi, res, and RS staffs are just too essential. Even solo players use staffs for RS and medi. The occasional heal too. The class itself, however, has just been replaced. Chiami has pretty much taken away the need for healing, but with the declining use of it, maybe there's a chance?


Yeah I caught this really late, but I'm just going to say this. When all players on your pt are equipped with 105 mags, healing would just make their damage worse due to the magatamas only deal more skill force damage IF your health is low(basically in red/danger zone). This also applies to any player equipped with those mags. Any healing skills are basically rendered a tad useless there.


I am quite aware of that. I mentioned in my original post that the chiami is losing its value, and that the main skills are invig/medi, res and RS. I said it has occasional heal. Rhythm also said it was detrimental which I agreed to. That doesn't refute the fact that staffs are essential to any class. And even with the new magas, no one wears attack magatamas or staff specific magatamas (unless going as a dedicated support). The healing they do now would be exactly the same with the 105s.
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Momiji » 06 Aug 2015, 02:05

Actually, I do use staff-specific set of magas for Inugami. Nether Trap is not as good for DPS, but i think the main point is that you can set trap and then roll away. (Think cycling 6 Nether Trap VIs on Inugami. The damage density is quite high.)

Oh, and with 105 magas, expect 5k+ extend heals with 13k cures. Way too much for 105 maga users...

Odachis though, they need more love :(
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Miyako Tachibana » 06 Aug 2015, 19:24

Ryxa wrote:While this does mean that swords CAN do more damage than TS, it doesn't mean they do so consistently.


Dunno if you could use this as an example, but it shows inconsistency in damage for swords. :|

http://youtu.be/g423E-1Q-X8
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Re: Weapon Tier List Discussion

Postby Seija Kijin » 30 Aug 2015, 14:02

Miyako Tachibana wrote:Wand>Axe>Bow>Staff>Sword=TwinSword

I have no idea where Odachi belongs, maybe between Axe and Bow due to having such enormous power.

Spear I dunno yet, I haven't done my research on how good they are late game.


TwinSword=Sword>Staff>Bow>Axe>Wand

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