Fix the Healer Class

[Hisashiburi]

Don't conveniently cut quote.

By your standards anyone not up to the job, regardless of weapon is to be considered fake
Hybrids? Fake
Spear that can't one shot a crowd of mobs? Fake
Rest of the melee weapons compared to spears? Fake

I understand clearly now.
Effort is a gesture, results are everything, now all will worship only the elite
Life lesson learned. Lol.

But but.. it's really convenient to cut the quote
What im trying to say is, i prefer someone whether if his/her main job is staff or not to put a little effort while using it. The ougis is just an example.
Hybrid is different meep. I myself is hybrid wis-mind right now (with higher wisdom ofc, my main weap is wand)
Does that mean im fake support? that may be true.
What do i do to make me a less fake support? Replace my wands with 4 staffs maybe, equip the staff's magatama, etc
At least, show some effort that you're not only equipping staff so you have an excuse to doing literally nothing in party.

So being support is totally easy, just put some staff on and have rapid storm/meditation and extend heal .. and perhaps pump up some MIND stats .. and one more, being selfless... which is not easy

And.. for lynneth, well you need a certain amount of mind so that staff's spell can be useful.
That's why i said, if the fake support didnt even put a little effort like pump up their mind stat, than again... a fake


And.. finally, if still dont get my point, then im done..
It was fun

[meep]

Player skills aside, the only requirement to being support is having a staff, healing/buffing skills and the player in question actively using them to aid the party.

A more complete quote.
Note "the player in question actively using them to aid the party"
We are actually in agreement you know

And as to adding mnd
You have a point

[Lynneth]

I want to add some informations about support/healing class, especially buffs. ( I confirmed this before maintenance @29 July 2014 ).

If you want to know whether someone is at least not 'fake' support, try asking him/her buff you, in this case I tried Idaten's Grace.

The minimum level of Idaten Grace is Idaten's Grace III, in order to maximize the effect, you will need TOTAL MIND stat of 30 or more. If not reached your buffs will not last long, only in short period of time.

So if you just get buffed, and just some seconds after that, the buff expires, it means your supporter is 'not really supporter'. At least, he/she doesn't invest the MIND enough to buff.

I sometimes got buffed by Rapid Storm from someone 'supports' but, after a few seconds the buff expires. It means he/she doesn't invest enough MIND to last the BUFFS to full effect.

Anyway, Rapid Storm needs at least TOTAL of 50 MIND to fully maximize the effect. (RS V)

You can test that at least if you're attacker wants to find some real supporter in your party.
or
You can test that if you have enough 'MIND' or Stats to buff someone else.

[Ozzy]

I like you both. You have a point.
ozzy = oozing out, slimes? , feels like an ooze

What does this mean? Do I really ooze? If i'm oozing anything that's probably not healthy and I simply must go to a doctor but I don't think it was meant in a bad way so thanks. On a more serious note, its true that these lucky boxes are a very useful and generous gift from Cyberstep. In my first post I kind of blew over the topic because I was getting pretty bored of listening to myself drone on and on but I think I should clarify. Basically, anyone that says a support doesn't get as many lucky boxes during a grind as their carry is completely correct but once you're done grinding if you put in alittle effort and time we can also get plenty of these shiny little boxes too.

Likewise, as far as "fake" supporters are concerned I would say that anyone who is willing and able to put their party's health and stats above their own should be considered legit. Again this is dependent on RESULTS not effort although tying a nice gesture you really need to have the healing and support power to actually be helpful if you want to be a "True" supporter. I've seen level 70+ people with maxed mind/affinity or whatever manage to completely abandon their party to pick off that one extra monster that got away while a "fake" support worked their butt of to heal and buff their party despite his obviously lower ability to do so. In the end this "fake" healer ended up being far more supportive to the group and the "true" supporter who was busy ranting at this poor guy for sucking at healing. While this may not be a common occurrence I still think that if anyone can produce the right results than regardless of stats they're doing a good thing. That said, I still believe that if you want to be support in most BUT NOT ALL cases it is probably best to be purely support and if you're not pure support focusing one your attack may be wiser. Although for grinding be able to be support helps a lot in finding a party one has to remember that later on when we're done grinding party's will need one really good support maybe two max and the rest will need to have high damage. What I'm trying to say it that in my opinion let pure support focus on support and nothing else and let the damage classes focus on their damage alone. I wouldn't say that a hybrid or any support is "fake" unless they're really just not good at supporting.... at all.

Please remember that this is all just my opinion and NOT facts but I still thought I should share them and clarify my early post hoping to help a little and see if i'm just crazy or not. (I still need to address the oozing issue I don't believe its healthy to ooze anything so if nobody hears from me in a few days...)

[Vrenna]

[I've edited a bit this post since I've lacked a few points]

Whoa, this thread got kinda ugly with time.

So, the point now is if people are true supporters or not.
That's kinda the problem of this game: There are no classes.

Not only that, weapons aren't enough to define if you're actually good at them, mostly for support weapons (staves). And why? Well, I've wandered around using a staff for a while (Caduceus) cause it had First Aid I and +100 HP Regen. Super useful for a mindless character like mine, helps you spare some food. And that's it. Cause support feels extra in this game, in the beginning that is!
And the beginning is long man, takes some serious grinding and all! It ends up teaching people something bad.

So for anyone who looked at me from far would say: "Whoa, a supporter!" Just cause I was wielding a Staff! And if I wanted I could have a super nice staff, get in a party as healer and spam some 80 hp heals, and even do the job! (Somehow?!).
That seems to change hard in the end game though, so hard you start thinking: "Where are the supporters?!"
Now you summon them.

But how can you actually do stuff without supporters?
Well, in the beginning of the game if you can't do something then you're either:
- Terrible.
- Lacking Lvls.
- Using Oni's Dagger when you don't have Power (seriously, I've seen this up to Yamataikoku).
- Lacking knowledge about the enemies' movement patterns.

And that's mostly of it. Since this game isn't WoW, things aren't about a perfect numerical system, there's a lot of "Skill" in the equation in this game, which leads you to think that everything is a matter of doing it right. Are supporters needed in this formula? Not in the long beginning that is, but it would help indeed!

But ignoring all that part, since support classes are essential (= Skills wont do it anymore) after a certain part of the game:
How can we, safelly, define a character as a supporter?

I think the problem lands... or starts at the stat system of the game, in which: You can do anything.
Sounds good, looks awesome, feels bad, smells rotten.

You can invest in one or all stats if you desire, no one will know what kind of character you are, sometimes even you wont know. Well, I don't know! A Vit/Dex character would be what? I guess it would be "Lamer". Kick ass with spears, when it gets hard/tiring switch to bows, there, job done. Would be better if I went pure something though, wish I knew!

I don't know, what to do with a situation in which anyone can be anything and you can't know what they are?
Kinda feels like being in a room with crossdressers, there's no solution in that other than having a proper Inspection, if you know what I mean.

That would lead to people defining, as I've posted in other thread, what they would want, and what they wouldn't want in their parties. People being excluded for their choices? Yep.

We need a system that ensures some sort of "Seal of Quality". Want an example? WoW:
WoW has classes and builds. You can only go for a certain role in a party if the build you have ENSURE that you're at least minimally competent on fullfilling that role.

There, a system that works. Now Onigiri:
Everyone can put in any stat and use any weapon going either hybrid or focused. Being hybrid CAN BE viable, but that depends on the ammount of stats, so it is possible that one of your "classes" will be useless, or your character will be completelly useless. There's no way to know that your build is useless until your "Skills" cant make up for it anymore.

So I think this thread isn't just about fix the Healer Class, starting with the fact that there's no class.
It should be: Add Classes.

And why add classes? So we have a "Seal of Quality" that says that someone IS SOMETHING, and IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD ON SOMETHING. I guess that should be enough? (Then fix the xp/lucky box thing, there, done)

[Deathy]

Vrenna,

I am not trying sound rude, but they do have semi class system, the Daring, and King, and Power - but they should add a perk to that said class to make it worth to what they want it to be.

For example in this Case Kind....






We should have Perk , to make us be more useful with said class we pick at the start. This would remove the bad early game us Staff do have, and would allow us to be more define as what people picked, and kinda help change into what we should spec as. For us, Kind user we should be able to heal much more higher, buff and give better regeneration rates. Also increase magical damage (Skill Force) for wand , to fully define the Wis/Mnd users.

- but sure then you can say Defensive would become the major thing for spear/leeches - they don't specialize in Buff's like Kind Does, which the SP/Healing count as, but they will be able to use the spell like Rapid storm, as they suppose to Stout (thickset or heavy: thicker and heavier in body than an average person of the same height) so they will be slow and need make up for it.

That 1 way to fix the Classes that are given to us at the start of the game honestly.

[Vrenna]

Vrenna,

I am not trying sound rude, but they do have semi class system, the Daring, and King, and Power - but they should add a perk to that said class to make it worth to what they want it to be.

For example in this Case Kind....






We should have Perk , to make us be more useful with said class we pick at the start. This would remove the bad early game us Staff do have, and would allow us to be more define as what people picked, and kinda help change into what we should spec as. For us, Kind user we should be able to heal much more higher, buff and give better regeneration rates. Also increase magical damage (Skill Force) for wand , to fully define the Wis/Mnd users.

- but sure then you can say Defensive would become the major thing for spear/leeches - they don't specialize in Buff's like Kind Does, which the SP/Healing count as, but they will be able to use the spell like Rapid storm, as they suppose to Stout (thickset or heavy: thicker and heavier in body than an average person of the same height) so they will be slow and need make up for it.

That 1 way to fix the Classes that are given to us at the start of the game honestly.

No rudeness spotted, don't worry.
Well, that thing... pft.

Honestly those subclasses are pretty much useless, and more, they encourage (if not strictly say) for people to go hybrid.
Do you know your lame Wiz/Mind build? Well, it's there, it's being taught in the "Kind" subclass to do it. That's not helping.

[Hisashiburi]

What I'm trying to say it that in my opinion let pure support focus on support and nothing else and let the damage classes focus on their damage alone.

Totally agree with this one. When i do party-grinding, and some people which is dps trying to use staff and said "can you carry us? i'll support you" to me, i'll just say "how about you carry me as well? i need your main weapon to help me clear this dungeon. And we can find 1 more person to become a support (ofc pure support)"
But still, even i do most of the job, i'd like to see my party member trying to beat the mobs by themselves.
Last time i do shinoda forest hard with 4 lvl 35-39 people while im being a support, it's really fun to see how hard they are trying to beat the mobs, teamwork, passion, ignoring that carry-leecher system that already planted in our mind.
Not effective? too long to finish dungeon?
Well, seems like we're already become grinding-holic, and forgot to having fun

[Deathy]

No rudeness spotted, don't worry.
Well, that thing... pft.

Honestly those subclasses are pretty much useless, and more, they encourage (if not strictly say) for people to go hybrid.
Do you know your lame Wiz/Mind build? Well, it's there, it's being taught in the "Kind" subclass to do it. That's not helping.

You do know I am pure Mnd, and I was keeping that in Mnd when I said those thing to you, which honestly isn't as bad as you make it sound .


Here look what I have and listen to what I am giving for example at higher endgame effect.



Right now I can cast heal and end up healing more then most people with the same rank staff/ item equip , cause my Mnd higher I reach the threshold + level thresh hold , which would increase the over all amount.

So in this Case King user should make buff last twice as longer then an other class to cast it. this make us more able to cast buff on multiple people, and not spam switch every weapon and ect to rebuff and sp regen them.

also increase healing ability by 10-100% depending on the MND reaching a threshold level (10,20,30,....100)

This what I meant about putting purpose to what you pick at the start - this way it the player to play by what they picked. Sure it a Sub class, but when you look in ur Stat u do keep the starting you pick (so mine is Kind), which would also mean the info it provide give it reason with what you pick. Rather then pick whatever is the best rounded stat and go from there. also this would give stat reset more reason to pick incase someone Did pick wrong classy and ect , and change to something more to what they wanted.


Get what I was saying now? or you think it still pointless?

[Vrenna]

No rudeness spotted, don't worry.
Well, that thing... pft.

Honestly those subclasses are pretty much useless, and more, they encourage (if not strictly say) for people to go hybrid.
Do you know your lame Wiz/Mind build? Well, it's there, it's being taught in the "Kind" subclass to do it. That's not helping.

You do know I am pure Mnd, and I was keeping that in Mnd when I said those thing to you, which honestly isn't as bad as you make it sound .


Here look what I have and listen to what I am giving for example at higher endgame effect.



Right now I can cast heal and end up healing more then most people with the same rank staff/ item equip , cause my Mnd higher I reach the threshold + level thresh hold , which would increase the over all amount.

So in this Case King user should make buff last twice as longer then an other class to cast it. this make us more able to cast buff on multiple people, and not spam switch every weapon and ect to rebuff and sp regen them.

also increase healing ability by 10-100% depending on the MND reaching a threshold level (10,20,30,....100)

This what I meant about putting purpose to what you pick at the start - this way it the player to play by what they picked. Sure it a Sub class, but when you look in ur Stat u do keep the starting you pick (so mine is Kind), which would also mean the info it provide give it reason with what you pick. Rather then pick whatever is the best rounded stat and go from there. also this would give stat reset more reason to pick incase someone Did pick wrong classy and ect , and change to something more to what they wanted.


Get what I was saying now? or you think it still pointless?

It is pointless, but not for stat growth.
These subclasses wont help us defining who's what, neither will help us define if we should go hybrid or focused, neither will help us define if a hybrid is really good with the stats it chose, or rather if that character is completelly deficient in one of the choices.

If I were to define your character by your subclass, I would at least expect from you some wands and elemental spells, rather, your character is most likelly completelly deficient in that aspect, focusing completelly on staves, or so that's what I understand.

If we get mine as an example it would be similar, I'm a Cautions character, but instead of Wis/Dex I went for Vit/Dex. And why? Cause I want a character with Spear/Bow, just that. Sadly, I couldn't find a suitable subclass for what I wanted, so I had to lame it out. People should expect from me to be completelly ranged, but rather, I'm mainly a spear user that eventually shoots some arrows!

And here is the thing: Custom Combinations (Like mine) and Focus (Like yours) shouldn't be happening, or so I think, considering how the subclasses were designed/described, but that's the best choice, either cause that's what you want (my case) or cause it's just better stat/efficiency wise (your case).

What to do now? We will still have people going any kind of distribution of stats for any reason, playing whatever way they want, because the game is free like that.

And I think this is kinda out of the thread's purpose (I'm sort of derailing it).
The thing about the "Fake Healers" is that people will have to deal with it. You can't define it by equipment/stats since skills are in the equation, you can't also exclude people that went hybrid, since that's supposed to be it, there's also no easy way to reset stats.

Right now people should be creating their characters in a certain way, but nowhere it says how it should be done, neither the terrible consequences of not doing it. This is lame.

That's why I ask for classes, to give us something solid to work over, something that wont let you go hybrid or something that wont let you focus or something that wont let you use some weapons, and so on.